Getting the best out of long lenses

[Rudi Venter]

I thought this an interesting post so have moved it for discussion in its own thread

This bird really has a "I am the king of the garden" attitude

It is nothing special Hamish but every small thing you can do helps with a long lens. The longest lens I have shot with (without multipliers) was a Canon 1200mm, and what a beast, razor sharp but you need to be real careful. The 500mm Sigma is not in the same class but it does appear to be sharper when you treat it well.

For me the basics are with any lens over 400mm:

1) Sturdy tripod.
2) Solid tripod head.
3) Use a shutter speed as high as possible but remember that some shutter speeds that are higher than other can be worse than the lower speed, will explain just now....
4) Use MLU if at all possible.
5) Use a remote release.
6) If you are really shooting at long focal lengths, place your left hand on the top of the lens barrel, one third of the length from either end. I also sometimes just "drape" my arm across the barrel of the lens.

This might sound strange but there is a good reason for it. When you fire the shutter, even with MLU, it causes a vibration (think of it as a wave like on a pond when you drop something into the water) that travels up the barrel, when it reaches the end of the lens it is reflected back (like when the wave hits the side of the pond). The vibration "wave" travels back and reached the camera, often while the shutter is still open and causes shake/soft image, or part of the image. If it returns in time to hurt the photo depend on the shutter speed and the length of the lens barrel.

By putting weight on the barrel at the 1/3 length nodes (where the barrel vibrates the most) you dampen the vibration substantially and end up with sharper images.

No, it does not help all the time, not every image/shutter speed/lens length is affected by this but it can and does make a difference!

If there is any wind it also helps to dampen any vibration or movement of the lens.

Yes, you can, and I often do, shoot hand held without a tripod at above 400mm (I often do with my 600 L IS f4) but then you need high shutter speed and preferably IS or VR, else you keeper rate will drop very quickly!
Hope this makes sense?

 

[Hamish Gill]

I thought this an interesting post so have moved it for discussion in its own thread

This bird really has a "I am the king of the garden" attitude

It is nothing special Hamish but every small thing you can do helps with a long lens. The longest lens I have shot with (without multipliers) was a Canon 1200mm, and what a beast, razor sharp but you need to be real careful. The 500mm Sigma is not in the same class but it does appear to be sharper when you treat it well.

For me the basics are with any lens over 400mm:

1) Sturdy tripod.
2) Solid tripod head.
3) Use a shutter speed as high as possible but remember that some shutter speeds that are higher than other can be worse than the lower speed, will explain just now....
4) Use MLU if at all possible.
5) Use a remote release.
6) If you are really shooting at long focal lengths, place your left hand on the top of the lens barrel, one third of the length from either end. I also sometimes just "drape" my arm across the barrel of the lens.

This might sound strange but there is a good reason for it. When you fire the shutter, even with MLU, it causes a vibration (think of it as a wave like on a pond when you drop something into the water) that travels up the barrel, when it reaches the end of the lens it is reflected back (like when the wave hits the side of the pond). The vibration "wave" travels back and reached the camera, often while the shutter is still open and causes shake/soft image, or part of the image. If it returns in time to hurt the photo depend on the shutter speed and the length of the lens barrel.

By putting weight on the barrel at the 1/3 length nodes (where the barrel vibrates the most) you dampen the vibration substantially and end up with sharper images.

No, it does not help all the time, not every image/shutter speed/lens length is affected by this but it can and does make a difference!

If there is any wind it also helps to dampen any vibration or movement of the lens.

Yes, you can, and I often do, shoot hand held without a tripod at above 400mm (I often do with my 600 L IS f4) but then you need high shutter speed and preferably IS or VR, else you keeper rate will drop very quickly!
Hope this makes sense?

Rudi

On point 6, surely this can be counter productive more often than not?
would perhaps a small sandbag (or similar) on the top of the lens in this position not be a more suitable solution?

also, out of interest if you have set up your camera with points 1-5 do you still use any type of vibration reduction?
although i have never tested it my self i have been told and read that use of VR/IS can counter productive when used in a perfectly stable camera due to the fact that the VR/IS systems works by introducing what is effectively unstable element into the lens... all be it a motor controlled unstable element...
have you heard that before?

also, another tip i think is useful is to shoot at a shutter speed that is equal to the focal length ... eg if using a 400mm lens, it is advised not to shoot below 400th of a second ... anyone heard that one before?

 

[Glen Roberts]

Rudi

On point 6, surely this can be counter productive more often than not?
would perhaps a small sandbag (or similar) on the top of the lens in this position not be a more suitable solution?

also, another tip i think is useful is to shoot at a shutter speed that is equal to the focal length ... eg if using a 400mm lens, it is advised not to shoot below 400th of a second ... anyone heard that one before?

A friend of mine had the Sigma 300-800mm and he nearly always rests his hand on top to the lens to help reduce shake.

I have also heard of using a shutter speed equal to or above the focal length. But they say if you use a crop sensor camera you need to take that into consideration, for example on my Canon 450D with my 400mm lens I should, in theory, use a shutter speed of 640th sec (400 x 1.6 crop sensor).

 

[Hamish Gill]

makes sense! ...
another tip ... DONT USE TELECONVERTERS AS THEY ARE PANTS! ... perhaps a slight generalisation ... but i have never found one thats any good ... the tc-20e ii i took to Kenya effectively ruined a lot of my shots!

... ive just twigged somthing ...

Rudi... Have you used the canon 1200mm 5.6 lens? ... when, where, you lucky lucky man!!

for anyone who isnt aware of this $100,000 lens here is a picture of it ...

the word you are look for is "OOOOOOO"

 

[Chris Dodkin]

I use the 1/focal length rule for most lenses - in fact to be safe I use the 1/(2 x focal length) rule if shooting high speed targets with 300mm or longer lenses.

Putting your hand on the lens top helps for steering the rig as well - you steer with both the camera and the hand on top, allowing better control as you pan.

IS off on a tripod I believe - any way, IS is for wussies! LOL

Only saw the Canon 1200mm in use once - at a British Superbikes race - a guy from AP had it, and was using it to get a compressed perspective down the straight.

Looked more like a surface to air missile!

Canon stopped making them - I think they only ever sold 35 or so due to the price, and the fact that you needed security clearance to buy one (I was told)...

The lens came with it's own flight case, it's own tripod and head, and a case for the tripod!

 

[Hamish Gill]

I read a few things about them ... i think you can still commission one???
apparently the FBI have 2 of them ... although that sound distinctly like a geeky rumour

 

[Chris Dodkin]

They were always built to order, and they told you the price at time of order based on the cost of materials at that time!

Definitely discontinued - Canon did a new 800mm lens which is more affordable...

I do shoot at 1200mm - using my 600 f4 L and the Canon 2x extender

You loose contrast with the 2x, but the AF is still good and the resolution is more than acceptable.

Here's a full frame from 1200mm taken on the 1D

 

[Chris Dodkin]

Oooo, here's a video from B&H

[video=youtube;U0E-nZOlY_k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0E-nZOlY_k[/video]

 

[Hamish Gill]

this thing looks a beast too

and i have always been intrigued by the copy on the sigma web site

Dedicated Battery Power
The dedicated Li-ion battery BP-21 is used to power the zooming and AF operation. This battery is housed within the lens body.

Matched Multiplier
The addition of a specifically designed dedicated “Attachment” produces a 400-1000mm F5.6 ultra telephoto zoom lens that still retains auto focus. For the convenience of the photographer, focusing distances and focal lengths can be viewed on the lens` built-in LCD panel.

lens' built in lcd??? ... sounds v interesting ... id love to see one in the flesh

 

[Chris Dodkin]

That is a shoulder launched missile!

Damn, if you got one of those out anywhere near a public building or structure over here, you'd be shot immediately!

 

[Paul Lange]

You do have the option of using telescopes which can be cheaper but I think that you end up with huge f ratios and no autofocus. I've looked about at scopes but I'm not convinced that you could get satisfactory results, anyone know?

As for dampening the long lenses vibrations could you not use fairly dense close foam rings around the lens at each 1/3rd of the length? I can see how using you hand or arm would work as you would be draping it roughly at the same point as the tripod.

So how much does the Sigma penis extension, cough erm, lens cost?

 

[Hamish Gill]

http://www.parkcameras.com/6501/Sig...oogle&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid6501

Park cameras 12,999.00
Was 15,999.99
Save 3,000.99

Baragin!


I think I have shared my view on spotting scopes with you before Paul ...
The way i see it is that there is no point in going down the spotting scope route as a photographer to get a long lens IMO ...
On the surface they might seem a cheap option to a long lens but once you take into account the tiny effective aperture, chromatic aborations and often major pincusion distortions they are not worth it! Ok if you spend maybe £1000 on one you loose the abortations ... But once you have spent that much you might as well have just bought a sigma 150-500 OS lens!
The camera attachments for spotting scopes are for bird watchers to catalogue what they spot, and not for Photographers ... Just my opinion of course ...

 

[Glen Roberts]

You do have the option of using telescopes which can be cheaper but I think that you end up with huge f ratios and no autofocus. I've looked about at scopes but I'm not convinced that you could get satisfactory results, anyone know?

As Hamish has said it's mainly birds watchers that do a bit of "Digi-scoping", but to get the best results you need a decent Scope ie: £1000 +.
But if you have the money for a top scope with practice you can get some very good shots.

 

[Chris Dodkin]

Holy cr@p - that Sigma is expensive - it's actually cheaper in Blighty than at B&H in NY! - Over $25,000 there

Found this great review on Amazon

110 of 146 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Well worth the sacrifice..., February 17, 2010
By M. Daniels (Tustin, CA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This review is from: Sigma 200-500mm f/2.8 APO EX DG Ultra-Telephoto Zoom Lens for Canon DSLR Cameras (Electronics)
Some may feel that this lens is a tad pricey but many forget about the needless things in their life that they can sell in order to purchase this beast. I immediately sold my vehicle because I was finally able to convince myself that I only use my vehicle a couple hours out of the day. It was sad that I even had to contemplate selling my car for this camera attachment but to somewhat justify my hesitation in selling it, I do drop off my children at school and use it as transportation to and from work every day. So, once I sold it, I realized that I had to come up with another $21,000.

I tried selling my apartment, but my landlord indicated that I could not legally do that. Whatever, Jim (Because I have learned not to burn bridges from past experiences, I stopped having open houses. Plus, the lawyer and court fees would put a damper on my upcoming Amazon purchase). Where was I going to come up with this $21,000? That's when a Sigma light bulb went off in my head.

I sold my two children to the Pesticide & Insecticide Testing Corporation. I feel it was a solid move on my part because they explained that my (now their's) children would always have enough to eat, exercise every day, and have a doctor present 24/7. With the money I made with this no-brainer sell and the under-the-table cash my wife was getting from working on the prestigious corner of Main Street and Almond Street, I was finally able to make the purchase of a lifetime.

I even had some extra cash leftover, so I decided to buy my first digital camera. This green monster looks great on my brand new Canon Rebel XSi. Thanks Sigma!

 

[Hamish Gill]

Haha! I love the Internet sometimes!!

 

[Rudi Venter]

Sorry guys, for some reason I missed this thread and did not see the replies till now!

As for point 6, a sandbag will help but I have found pushing down on the lens made a difference and does not really increase movement. Heavy lenses are better than light ones for the same reason.

Yes, it was the 1200mm f5.6 that I have used. I have also used the sigma 300-800 and recently tried the new, superb, Canon 800 L IS f5.6, it is now on my wish list

I find that if you use a very sharp prime with a good multiplier it is hard to see any great quality loss, I regularly use a 1.4 or 2x converter on my 500 and 600mm L IS f4 Canon lenses with great results other than a slightly lower contrast but that can be fixed in PP.

I have even stacked 2 multipliers with good results. Since the Canon 1 series bodies will AF well up to f8 AF still works fine.

The only zooms I have used with a multiplier have been the Nikon 200-400 (mixed results) and the Canon 70-200 L IS f2.8, Sigma 120-300 f2.8 (both good results)

 

[Hamish Gill]

The TC20Eii I used was with the 70-200 2.8 ... But to be fair I have never been great with long lenses and without checking I'd say I was probably not using it very well

 

[Rudi Venter]

Rudi

On point 6, surely this can be counter productive more often than not?
would perhaps a small sandbag (or similar) on the top of the lens in this position not be a more suitable solution?

also, out of interest if you have set up your camera with points 1-5 do you still use any type of vibration reduction?
although i have never tested it my self i have been told and read that use of VR/IS can counter productive when used in a perfectly stable camera due to the fact that the VR/IS systems works by introducing what is effectively unstable element into the lens... all be it a motor controlled unstable element...
have you heard that before?

also, another tip i think is useful is to shoot at a shutter speed that is equal to the focal length ... eg if using a 400mm lens, it is advised not to shoot below 400th of a second ... anyone heard that one before?

Sorry, missed this question. If the camera is stable, like on a tripod, you should not use any IS/VR, if you do you will see that the VR/IS tries to stabilize but end up dritfing and jumping now and then. The newer IS on Canon lenses will sense this situation and automatically de-activate till there is vibration again.

When using a mono-pod or bean bag I usually leave the IS/VR/OS on since it is nor perfectly stable.

I have heard about the shutter speed equal to the lens focal length but cannot say that I have been able to prove any advantage to this.

 

[Rudi Venter]

The TC20Eii I used was with the 70-200 2.8 ... But to be fair I have never been great with long lenses and without checking I'd say I was probably not using it very well

I have found a 70-200 f2.8 with a 2x tc to be not as good as a 400 f5.6 but still quite usable. In general it seems primes work better with TC's

 

[Hamish Gill]

I have heard about the shutter speed equal to the lens focal length but cannot say that I have been able to prove any advantage to this.

I think it's a rule for hand held shooting really!