Waterfall Walk in Ingleton
- Thread starter Ian Sampson
- Start date
Pete Askew
Admin
Blimey, that's a lot of waterfalls! I do like numbers 6 - 8 and the last one has a very satisfying 'flow' to it too. I see you were struggling with dynamic range a bit. I'm sure the Canon will help there especially if you shoot in RAW.
Ian Sampson
Member
Hi Pete and thanks
Yes, it's a long walk and there are more of them. I took these as an afterthought really as I only discovered the sign for Waterfall Walk after I came out of the White Scar caves-again in Ingleton. I will start another thread for those pics.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the dynamic range comment-what is it? (newbie alert!)
by the way-now I have the Canon and something to experiment with, I'll be going back there to take a lot more pics. This is going to be fun.
Yes, it's a long walk and there are more of them. I took these as an afterthought really as I only discovered the sign for Waterfall Walk after I came out of the White Scar caves-again in Ingleton. I will start another thread for those pics.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the dynamic range comment-what is it? (newbie alert!)
by the way-now I have the Canon and something to experiment with, I'll be going back there to take a lot more pics. This is going to be fun.
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Pete Askew
Admin
Dynamic range is effectively the difference between the darkest and brightest parts of a scene. In some of these you are losing any detail in the brightest parts due to the difference from the darker areas. You might find these worth reading:
http://www.realphotographersforum.c...s-exposure-part-1-understanding-aperture.html
http://www.realphotographersforum.com/content/135-what-raw.html
http://www.realphotographersforum.c...s-exposure-part-1-understanding-aperture.html
http://www.realphotographersforum.com/content/135-what-raw.html
Brian Moore
Moderator
Being mostly a shooter of film, RAW has been something of a mystery to me. But lately I've been shooting my Canon DSLR much more I have become interested in knowing more about the benefits/properties of RAW images. Pete, thanks for posting the link to Larry's explanation. Which is very nicely explained, indeed. It has helped me to understand this mysterious phenomena.
Chris Dodkin
West Coast Correspondent
Love #1 and #10 - lovely feeling of movement, and keeping direct sunlight out of the images has helped with the dynamic range.
As mentioned, shooting RAW on teh Canon will give you at least 2 stops more range between black and white, so allowing you to capture such scenes without loosing shadow detail or highlight detail.
As mentioned, shooting RAW on teh Canon will give you at least 2 stops more range between black and white, so allowing you to capture such scenes without loosing shadow detail or highlight detail.
Brian Moore
Moderator
Chris,...are all your shots done in RAW?
Chris Dodkin
West Coast Correspondent
Yep - I use RAW exclusively - It's been a life saver, (Exposure/colour temp fixing), and I really like the final image quality after I've imported to PS.
I do all my sharpening using the Adobe RAW converter, colour balance, exposure, saturation, black level, fill light, leveling etc etc etc
Just an amazing tool, and the RAW results are well worth the larger file sizes and longer PP time
I do all my sharpening using the Adobe RAW converter, colour balance, exposure, saturation, black level, fill light, leveling etc etc etc
Just an amazing tool, and the RAW results are well worth the larger file sizes and longer PP time
Brian Moore
Moderator
There's no doubt you have created and shared some very excellent images. Thanks, Chris!
Hamish Gill
Tech Support (and Marketing)
Wow wow wow, let's let the chap walk before he can run! 
no condecention intended Ian
They are right, raw shooting will help, but it does assume an desire to spend some time in front of the computer processing the images etc ... And some knowledge of processing etc!
For the sake of the argument, I'm going to assume full newbie status for you Ian, so if I cover any ground you already know please excuse me!
The compo you obviously have an eye for! Which is really all you need ... Everything else above and beyond that is just honing!
As for dynamic range...
Your camera (all cameras) are limited in the amount of difference between dark and light
This is apparent in a few of your images where instead of there being detail there is either pure white or pure black
We would call this clipped (or blown) highlight or lost shadow respectively!
Don't be disheartened! This happens to all of us! The are a variety of methods for getting around this, some basic some more advanced!
The more advanced are more effective, but getting to grips with the basic ones is part of te curve is part of the curve to the more advanced!
Basic ones
Framing
When you frame an image, look for possible areas of issue
Some of your photos have no problems, these are the ones where there is no bight sunlight shining on white water near dark rocks! Avoid that circumstance ... Avoid the situation where a "problem" may occur!
Exposure compensation
Clipped highlights are more distracting on the eye than lost shadows. So try under exposing slightly with your exposure compensation control!
Bracketing
Same as above really, bracketing is a method that will make the camera take three or more exposures on sequence at slightly different levels of exposure. This means you can just snap away 3 (or more shots) for each photo and look at them on the computer later and decide what is best!
More advanced
Grad filters
For scenes different to these, ie sky at the top land at the bottom, you can get filters to go on the front of the lens that are dark at the top and transparent at the bottom! I'm sure you can imaging why that might help in some circumstances ... Not so much for waterfalls!
Post process
Post process ie editin the photos on the computer after ... Often in combo with some of the above will reap the best results ... Especially if you shoot raw!
Raw has its benefits... Larrys explanation in Petes link is pretty good, but loosely speaking... And perhaps in terms that may sit well with you...
Edit a jpeg on the computer and it's like trying to squeeze better quality out of an 320kpbs mp3 ... The quality is there, no doubt, but of you don't like the compression the engineer used when the track was mastered, your stuck with it!
Shooting raw is like having the studio master to play with!
It is the uncompressed master version!
You just need to have the right kit to play it!
Photoshop, Lightroom, aperture ... Loads of software to choose from, most will recognise your raw files!
If you want to experiment, set the camera to shoot raw and jpeg at the same time...
If you can justify it at this stage, Lightroom is the easiest software I know!
In there you can just slide a slider to drop exposure and regain lost highlights!
Very advanced
After you have got to grips with software a bit, you can start to look at combining different exposures of te same scene... This will increase the potential dynamic range of the camera!
This method is known as HDR or (as I learnt recently) effusion!
I used it on a job on Monday for some tricky scenes, keeps you eyes peeled and I will be posting some examples soon!
If you need any help with the camera settings mentioned ... One of the canon folk will help if you ask!
Hope that helps!
Finally, as I said, please don't be disheartened by all the comments regarding this, we are trying to help, but often (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, I'm not haveing a dig) some of the more experienced of us forget what previous parts of the learning curve were like! It might seem daunting, but really we are here to help/advise as much as possible!
Photography is a never ending curve and we are all on it at different places!
no condecention intended IanThey are right, raw shooting will help, but it does assume an desire to spend some time in front of the computer processing the images etc ... And some knowledge of processing etc!
For the sake of the argument, I'm going to assume full newbie status for you Ian, so if I cover any ground you already know please excuse me!
The compo you obviously have an eye for! Which is really all you need ... Everything else above and beyond that is just honing!
As for dynamic range...
Your camera (all cameras) are limited in the amount of difference between dark and light
This is apparent in a few of your images where instead of there being detail there is either pure white or pure black
We would call this clipped (or blown) highlight or lost shadow respectively!
Don't be disheartened! This happens to all of us! The are a variety of methods for getting around this, some basic some more advanced!
The more advanced are more effective, but getting to grips with the basic ones is part of te curve is part of the curve to the more advanced!
Basic ones
Framing
When you frame an image, look for possible areas of issue
Some of your photos have no problems, these are the ones where there is no bight sunlight shining on white water near dark rocks! Avoid that circumstance ... Avoid the situation where a "problem" may occur!
Exposure compensation
Clipped highlights are more distracting on the eye than lost shadows. So try under exposing slightly with your exposure compensation control!
Bracketing
Same as above really, bracketing is a method that will make the camera take three or more exposures on sequence at slightly different levels of exposure. This means you can just snap away 3 (or more shots) for each photo and look at them on the computer later and decide what is best!
More advanced
Grad filters
For scenes different to these, ie sky at the top land at the bottom, you can get filters to go on the front of the lens that are dark at the top and transparent at the bottom! I'm sure you can imaging why that might help in some circumstances ... Not so much for waterfalls!
Post process
Post process ie editin the photos on the computer after ... Often in combo with some of the above will reap the best results ... Especially if you shoot raw!
Raw has its benefits... Larrys explanation in Petes link is pretty good, but loosely speaking... And perhaps in terms that may sit well with you...
Edit a jpeg on the computer and it's like trying to squeeze better quality out of an 320kpbs mp3 ... The quality is there, no doubt, but of you don't like the compression the engineer used when the track was mastered, your stuck with it!
Shooting raw is like having the studio master to play with!
It is the uncompressed master version!
You just need to have the right kit to play it!
Photoshop, Lightroom, aperture ... Loads of software to choose from, most will recognise your raw files!
If you want to experiment, set the camera to shoot raw and jpeg at the same time...
If you can justify it at this stage, Lightroom is the easiest software I know!
In there you can just slide a slider to drop exposure and regain lost highlights!
Very advanced
After you have got to grips with software a bit, you can start to look at combining different exposures of te same scene... This will increase the potential dynamic range of the camera!
This method is known as HDR or (as I learnt recently) effusion!
I used it on a job on Monday for some tricky scenes, keeps you eyes peeled and I will be posting some examples soon!
If you need any help with the camera settings mentioned ... One of the canon folk will help if you ask!
Hope that helps!
Finally, as I said, please don't be disheartened by all the comments regarding this, we are trying to help, but often (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, I'm not haveing a dig) some of the more experienced of us forget what previous parts of the learning curve were like! It might seem daunting, but really we are here to help/advise as much as possible!
Photography is a never ending curve and we are all on it at different places!
Hamish Gill
Tech Support (and Marketing)
I'm forever showing people this thread
http://www.realphotographersforum.com/landscape-architecture/1723-dol-goch-falls.html
I think it's the forth picture where you can see some sun shining through?
I couldn't get the exposure right... It wound me up that I didn't know how to best expose under that circumstance ... It was my first (and only attempt at water falls) ... So for the rest of the day (as you can see by the rest of the shots) I avoided patches of sunlight for the most part ...
And I'm a professional ... ... I should know this stuff ... Especially as I do weddings with white dresses and dark suits!!
I just couldn't get it right! Even on the computer after, with some bracketed versions ... I'd still not got enough highlight detail in the most under exposed version to do anything about it!!
In fact, I even went as far to colour that lost highlight in yellow in a bid to make it less distracting .. Still catches the eye unpleasantly...
http://www.realphotographersforum.com/landscape-architecture/1723-dol-goch-falls.html
I think it's the forth picture where you can see some sun shining through?
I couldn't get the exposure right... It wound me up that I didn't know how to best expose under that circumstance ... It was my first (and only attempt at water falls) ... So for the rest of the day (as you can see by the rest of the shots) I avoided patches of sunlight for the most part ...
And I'm a professional ... ... I should know this stuff ... Especially as I do weddings with white dresses and dark suits!!
I just couldn't get it right! Even on the computer after, with some bracketed versions ... I'd still not got enough highlight detail in the most under exposed version to do anything about it!!
In fact, I even went as far to colour that lost highlight in yellow in a bid to make it less distracting .. Still catches the eye unpleasantly...
Hamish Gill
Tech Support (and Marketing)
Oh and by the way, number 4 and the last one are my favorites ...
Just to confuse you a little more, sometimes lost or close to lost highlights work!
Number 4 with the dark rocks surround the very fast moving water that is close to being lost to highlight works as the highlight (for me) adds to the feeling of the image instead of distracting the eye!
The last one is just a good photo, end of really
Just to confuse you a little more, sometimes lost or close to lost highlights work!
Number 4 with the dark rocks surround the very fast moving water that is close to being lost to highlight works as the highlight (for me) adds to the feeling of the image instead of distracting the eye!
The last one is just a good photo, end of really
Pete Askew
Admin
Excellent explanations there Hamish. See, there's a reason you're the boss!!
Hamish Gill
Tech Support (and Marketing)
I'm going to start handing out dunce hats to people who call me the boss or anything pertaining to me being in charge soon! I'M NOT THE BOSS!
Pete Askew
Admin
OK, Boss, if you say so!
Kev Pugh
Well-Known Member
OK Boss Understood Chief I'm on it Gaffa and I'm outta here Guvn'r 
Ian you have some great locations to work with and you will soon see the difference in your work the more you do, I would be pleased with these and reading what the Guvn'r ( Chuckle me boots off) says and you'll soon be there...
Understood Chief I'm on it Gaffa and I'm outta here Guvn'r Ian you have some great locations to work with and you will soon see the difference in your work the more you do, I would be pleased with these and reading what the Guvn'r (
Chuckle me boots off) says and you'll soon be there...
Hamish Gill
Tech Support (and Marketing)
Dunce hats all around ...
Im serious ... i can do some sort of warning thing something with the forum software i think
Im serious ... i can do some sort of warning thing something with the forum software i think
Ian Sampson
Member
Hi Hamish et al
Many thanks for the constructive advice-definitely wanted and needed.
At the moment all the pics I'll be posting will be those taken with the Olympus C450, really just to show the sort of areas I love exploring.
I will definately go to these places again with the Canon and tripod and attempt several shots at exactly the same locations to see the effect of different apertures/speeds etc.
Help here would be very gratefully received.
Hamish-if I fall in a river at the same location as last time I'm going to be very very cross.
And very very wet.
All the best
Ian
Many thanks for the constructive advice-definitely wanted and needed.
At the moment all the pics I'll be posting will be those taken with the Olympus C450, really just to show the sort of areas I love exploring.
I will definately go to these places again with the Canon and tripod and attempt several shots at exactly the same locations to see the effect of different apertures/speeds etc.
Help here would be very gratefully received.
Hamish-if I fall in a river at the same location as last time I'm going to be very very cross.
And very very wet.
All the best
Ian
Pete Askew
Admin
Make sure to set the self-timer first though!!
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