Digital Printing?

Gary R. Smith

Gary R. Smith

Well-Known Member
Anyone do much digital photo printing at home/work?

Looking for input on printers and papers.

I currently have an Epson WF7510 that uses pigment inks (albeit: 3 color + black) that will do 13" x 19". Sheets feed face down and emerge face up.

I've printed a few 4" x 6" glossy prints but I've never printed any large black and white.

I've ordered some sample packets from Red River Paper.
 
I'm not expert, but I have been doing a little bit more recently with my Canon G650. It's only A4 but adequate for my needs in that regard. Print quality is very good, black and white handled particularly well in terms of a neutral mono image (albeit with a subtle 'Heath Robinson' tweak of levels in Elements). Colour is also very good, even though the profile it comes with is sort of 'baked in' and not easy to change, though this hasn't been a problem for me yet. Other than quality photo printing, the main reason I chose this model is it's use of megatank ink cartridges with it's 6 colours (the usual four plus grey and red). So far I've only used their medium grade photo paper and nothing more exotic, but the results I'm getting are pleasing overall. Just my limited perspective, hope this helps a little.
 
Thanks Ralph! Do you do much printing? Enough so that you don't have subsequent trouble with the printheads?
I'm going to see how my WF7510 does w/ black and white on some good paper. I've been looking at the Canon PIXMA PRO-200 Wireless Professional Inkjet Photo Printer which is dye ink in 8 colors. The price is a factor.

​

 
Very nice, a level or two up from mine at least, as far as I can see (more inks, too). So far, touch wood, I've never had any real issues with Canon printers in regard to blocked nozzles etc (I've had a couple before this one). My G650 is about half the price of the Pro200 (though, of course, only A4) and presumably cheaper on ink refills, both in terms of number of inks and size of cartridges as they are refillable.
 
Gary R. Smith said:
Anyone do much digital photo printing at home/work?

Looking for input on printers and papers.

I currently have an Epson WF7510 that uses pigment inks (albeit: 3 color + black) that will do 13" x 19". Sheets feed face down and emerge face up.

I've printed a few 4" x 6" glossy prints but I've never printed any large black and white.

I've ordered some sample packets from Red River Paper.
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With cost being a factor I'm not for sure how much help I can be. I have been printing on wide format Epson printers since 2006, Pro 9800 and now Surecolor P-8000. I also have an Epson Pro 4800 (roll & sheets up to 17" wide). I do custom printing for a lab on their Epson 11880 60" wide printer. These printers use pigment inks which are the standard if archival printing is your goal. Check out Wilhelm Research site for deep dive into longevity of papers and ink. My 4800 is on K3 inks so not best for maximum archival levels but great for proofing and secondary printing. I don't recommend dye inks for any kind of serious work.

Before I say anything else I have to start by addressing this item first. That would be your monitor. Does it cover a broad color gamut and is it color calibrated. You don't want to be wasting ink and paper on multiple proof prints. I also use a 5000K lighted print viewing wall for critical color assessment. A company called Calibrite has recently released a low cost monitor calibration device (Calibrite 123) and they also sell a desktop light for print viewing.

One feature I consider a big plus is photo black and matte black ink sharing. My 4800 doesn't have this feature so for economy I keep it loaded with matte black. I prefer the matte papers for art prints and I also produce custom one off cards. My main proofing paper is Red River Polar Matte 2s(double-sided), Item: 1943. Being able to print on both sides is a money saver and the look of the paper is acceptable for test prints and cards.

I know blocked nozzles has been an issue for Epson after the 4800/9800 printer line but they have made improvements in recent years. I rarely have blocked nozzles on the P-8000 and it doesn't get daily use other than a head check. My repair tech just said to purchase the maximum/longest warranty I could get. One head replacement more than covers the cost of the extended warranty. Another factor to consider is ease of repairs. Canon doesn't have a repair presence in Dallas so down time becomes an issue. I have no history on Canon printers so I'm no help there. I also print on heavy Hahnemule Photo Rag, 465 gsm sheets, and the P-8000 handles it nicely. The heavy art papers can cause feed issues with some printers. The Advanced black&white mode on Epson printers is highly regarded for b&w prints with minimum color and there is even an obscure feature that allows me to print at 720 resolution instead of the normal 360 on my 4800. For high resolution and detailed files this feature is a plus.

I'll stop here and wait to see your response before I overload you with TMI. I believe a print is the final and ultimate outcome of any photograph whether film or digital. Printing though is more complex though than just hitting print.
 
Hi Bill, thanks for your detailed response!

For some background: I'm 70. I'd likely rarely share my prints. When I was 20 I had a wet darkroom and printed a lot (but again: mostly for me). I've never sold a print nor do I ever expect to.

In my recent photography days (say the last 12 years) quite a bit of my photography was used to illustrate technical manuals and as such purely digital was fine. Then I started shooting again for me, and started developing b&w again.

I suspect that my initial upgrade will be better paper through the Epson WF7510 with possibly some larger prints than 8.5" x 11". Seeing if pigment inks do well on better paper (wasn't very impressed with the surface finish on Canon or Epson Glossy Photo Papers although the results were fine for sharing a 4" x 6" print with somebody).

I don't see me needing a $1000+ printer.

Going with a Canon PIXMA PRO-200 would be to see what more inks would do and what dye inks would look like on both matte and glossy papers.

What's your opinion of Red River Paper? I understand that Hahnemule makes a good paper but perhaps it's more than I'd ever need.

And finally, my entire pc set-up is also likely to be upgraded at some point (so, the monitor isn't calibrated). I have an external monitor next to the open laptop monitor and it's quite easy to see color differences. That said, my editing pleases me when viewed on screen.
 
You may be happier with a satin finish. This Satin finish is different across different manufacturers paper and some have a more pebble texture finish. This texture can help provide some surface durability by guarding from scuffs. Epson Premium Lustre has good archival ratings and is inexpensive. You need to decide how white you like the paper base to be. The higher the number the whiter it is. The whiteness translates as cooler for the printed image so do you prefer cooler whites or warmer whites. A 100% cotton fibre based paper without any OBA's(optical brightening agents) is usually creamier/warmer. Papers with OBA's will appear cooler when exposed to UV rays so conservation or museum glass that filters UV will affect the whiteness of the paper after framing. Every paper interprets an image differently so each paper has to be tested. Just because you use each manufacturers i.c.c. profile for a specific paper it doesn't mean an image will look the same on various paper stocks from the same manufacturer.

Red River has some nice paper stocks for low prices but there is a visual difference when doing a critical comparison with finer grades of paper from Epson, Hahnemuhle, or Moab to name a few. I also recommend buying 11x17,13x19 or 17x22 sheets and cutting them in half if needed. The cost per sheet may be a slightly less cost per sq. inch but the main advantage is having the ability to print bigger without stocking another box of paper. The bigger sheet also allows for gang printing like a digital contact sheet. PS will automatically create a contact sheet for you from a folder of images after you set up the size parameters.

Again, I don't recommend dye based inks for any prints that you want to last more than a few years. As far as how your image looks on screen and how it looks out of the printer can be worlds apart without calibration. Time and money are a precious commodity so working with an uncalibrated monitor will require more of both of those items. There is a calibration software that uses your smartphone called TruHu but I would definitely lean more towards the Calibrite 123 for an inexpensive calibration method.

I hope this helps and doesn't muddy the waters too much. You may be surprised at how you feel about your work once you start printing so don't sell your photos or yourself short.
 
Bill Brown said:
I would definitely lean more towards the Calibrite 123 for an inexpensive calibration method.
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I'll likely shell out for a Calibrite system and might also spring for a new monitor. My Acer V233H is old and although it is still working just fine the surface has some imperfections from aggressive cleaning years ago.

As I've noted, I don't plan on making prints for anyone other than me (won't be selling anything) and to tell you the truth I would expect anything printed with a dye ink to outlast my gradually diminishing eyesight.

Thanks Bill!
 
I don't do any serious printing any more but when I did I used mostly Hahnemuhle or Epson matte or semi matte in a pigment ink printer. Mon is the hardest I have found and still do.
 
I bought a Canon Pro300 about a year and half ago - and have really enjoyed using it. I have sample paper kits from various manufacturers but honestly haven't sat down and spent the time and ink to figure out what I like / dislike. I have been mainly using Canon Pro Luster , Pro Platinum, and Pro Matte papers and have been quite happy with the results.

The reason I went Canon was because the print head is replaceable. I keep to printing at least one thing a week - just to keep the ink from drying. It gets better "mileage" from the ink than I expected as well.

Luckily I saved a display from E-Waste at my work - it is a 55" LED surgical display that has an impressive amount of built in color profiles. Weights a ton but it looks fantastic and I have managed to pretty much get everything set up to what I see on the monitor is what I get out of the printer.
 
Thanks Paul! I'm going to try some Red River papers on my 3 color + black pigment Epson. Then, if anything I'd most likely "upgrade" to a Canon Pro 200 (which is 8 dye cartridges).
 
That is one of the companies I have a sampler pack from - and I have yet to get around to trying their stuff out. I know it is pretty highly regarded and I like how they have sample packs geared towards whatever printer you own.

I was going to buy a Pro200 - but as I was adding one to my cart it so happened I noticed the Pro300s were on sale for $699 so I went that route. It seems the Pro300s go on sale a few times a year, so maybe the 200s will as well.

Every Thursday I print something and throw it in my archive box appropriately labeled "Sh*tty Photo Prints" lol. I look forward to it weekly despite it's cost in ink / paper.

Since buying the printer - all the bought pictures / posters / etc in my house have been replaced by framed prints of my own photography. I bought a Logan Graphics Classic matte cutting tool right after the printer and order a bulk pack of nice frames and every six months or so rotate pictures.
 
Tony Warren said:
I used to print A3+, mounted for exhibition work and smaller sizes for club competition. Nowadays I only print my favourites at A4 to keep in a folder to flip through every now and again when I get a bit jaded.
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I have to admit my printing experience has mostly been of more modest needs (the occasional image beyond A4 I'd have printed at a lab) and I've never been down the club route. Your current printing routine sounds s bit like mine. I keep any I print in high quality visi-files in a lever arch file. I appreciate that this causes a loss of contrast etc to the viewer, but one can always slip the print out to see it in all it's glory.
 
Ralph Turner said:
I have to admit my printing experience has mostly been of more modest needs (the occasional image beyond A4 I'd have printed at a lab) and I've never been down the club route. Your current printing routine sounds s bit like mine. I keep any I print in high quality visi-files in a lever arch file. I appreciate that this causes a loss of contrast etc to the viewer, but one can always slip the print out to see it in all it's glory.
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The best thing I did was join a postal portfolio back in the UK around fifty years ago. It involved printing a 10x8 every month to be submitted to some pretty keen critics. We almost all did some club competition judging so no one pulled any punches. Some images really sing as prints which is why I still do much the same as you. I did avoid clubs for many years but the folio was my saviour and this forum is doing something similar for me in my declining years.
 
For a while I've been applying a 'at least one print per roll of film developed' rule, assuming I haven't completely messed a roll up one way or another. Although I shoot a fair bit of colour (I rarely shoot colour on film now), the funny thing is, I haven't printed many colour images since starting this folder. Maybe most of my creative focus in recent times has been on b+w film and there's a residual notion of seeing a physical negative through to it's traditionally logical conclusion of a print in the hand. Not sure. Anyway, although it's not quite the same as a silver print, there's still something special about looking at a nice (dye or pigment) print.
 
Ralph Turner said:
For a while I've been applying a 'at least one print per roll of film developed' rule, assuming I haven't completely messed a roll up one way or another. Although I shoot a fair bit of colour (I rarely shoot colour on film now), the funny thing is, I haven't printed many colour images since starting this folder. Maybe most of my creative focus in recent times has been on b+w film and there's a residual notion of seeing a physical negative through to it's traditionally logical conclusion of a print in the hand. Not sure. Anyway, although it's not quite the same as a silver print, there's still something special about looking at a nice (dye or pigment) print.
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I agree Ralph - a print on paper is a print whatever the medium and the choice of inkjet surfaces is massive these days. Some of the ones using baryta can come very close to a silver print. Interesting your comment on the absence of colour prints - a printed monochrome does have something extra.
 
One of the papers that I think looks quite similar to the traditional darkroom print is Epson Exhibition Fiber. It does have some OBA's but I won't be alive by the time there is visible tone shift. The weight of the paper is a heavy feel in hand so it seems more serious to anyone receiving a print. The emulsion thickness gives a luscious feel to an image so portraits can have a depth to them that other papers don't seem to have. The paper surface is smooth but not as ticky as something like the Canson Infinity Baryta. The detail rendering of the Exhibition Fiber is excellent but not as crisp as the Canson. In some sense it is more film like with slight edge detail fall-off.

The creamy look of the Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique is beautiful with monochrome images. I've printed up to 30"x40" on this paper with beautiful results but the 'ticky' nature of the paper surface ultimately was it's downfall for me. It seemed no matter how carefully I handled the paper there was always a surface abrasion somewhere. For ultimate protection this paper needs to be final sprayed with something like Premier Print Shield. My main Baryta paper that I use most often is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. It has nice detail and color rendering without the ticky surface. In fact it is quite durable.

Yes, the Hahnemuhle is pricey when compared to the Canson but not having remakes due to surface issues made the Hahnemuhle cost competitive. The Exhibition Fiber is reasonably priced but is a whiter base so you just have to decide what you like for your images. I don't know if dye based prints would 'look' the same. My experience is all with pigment inks. Or as some would say "your mileage may vary".
 
I'm planning to try some Red River Paper types with my existing Epson WF-7510.

This is what is currently showing in my C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color folder:

icc profiles.jpg
Do I need to obtain ICC Profiles from Red River and install them somehow?

Would they simply be placed into the above folder?

Thanks!
 
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