X-Pro1 - Red/Magenta issue

Chris Dodkin

West Coast Correspondent
Noticed this for the first time yesterday - reminds me of a color issue I used to see back on the original Canon D30 camera.

Shooting images of the 'security' team outside a bar, their red shirts came out magenta in the standard jpeg.

555EBF8BC54E402B9527B9C7988A1B90.jpg


60 mm, ISO 200, 1/450 sec, f2.8, 0 EV

AWB, std Jpeg settings in camera, sRGB - no film simulation

Doesn't look promising, will have to investigate further and check the RAW version of the shot as well.

Chris.
 
May just be the JPEG engine in the camera Hamish - not had a chance to try the RAW file yet

Shot plenty of other red stuff with no issues, so just needs investigating

On the D30 - you had to be super careful with exposure when shooting hard reds - any over exposure and you got magenta!

I was shooting lots of BTCC racing at the time, and kept getting magenta cars instead of red - annoying as hell!
 
Well, I installed the RAW converter that FujiFilm provided with the camera

It has a display mode that shows out of gamut colors - and when I enable that warning feature, sure enough, the red shirts all show as out of gamut color

63371478FF1D46CDA302002F106CD62B.jpg


Fuji's software manual states:

10.1.6 Color Gamut and Adjustment Outside of Gamut

There are some cases that exceed the presentable color range, when taking photograph of the high saturation color or when increasing "saturation" during development process.
The 'Highlight/Shadow/Outside of the Color Gamut Warnings' function gives a warning regarding the portion that exceeds the presentable color gamut.

This software can handle two colorspaces such as sRGB and Adobe RGB. In theses colorspaces, all of existing colors can not be expressed.
On the other hand, when taking a photograph with a RAW file, a camera can capture the colors accurately that are in the color gamut which is much wider than that of the case that these colorspaces can handle.
On this account, in a case of a flower etc. with high saturation, colors may exceed the color gamut (presentable color range) that these colorspaces can handle.

This software can handle the color gamut completely which a camera can capture and also this software can clip the color that exceeds the range at the final stage of the development processing.
The warning function for out of color gamut gives a warning to a portion with a clipped color.
Since the colors that are out of the color gamut are clipped and compressed into the color gamut of sRGB and Adobe RGB, details are compressed as if they are like being crashed.
Even as the over-saturation does not occur, if you feel that details of the highly saturated portion are lost, you need to check whether colors are out of the color gamut or not.
Even if the colors that are out of the color gamut become darkened by adjusting the "exposure bias", a warning is still given, not like the case of the over-saturation.
Describing with the values of R, G, and B, it is a highly saturated portion as if one or even two among R, G, and B takes a negative value.

For example, although a color with values as R=255, G=0 and B=0 is the most saturated red that can be represented in this RGB colorspace, a camera has captured red color with much higher saturation. When it is developed, it may have values like R=255, G=-20, and B=-20. Of course, such a color cannot be outputted, and it is clipped. So details with high saturation are looked like being crashed.

For example, even if an actual flower has subtle details of saturation between R=255, G=-20, B=-20 and R=255, G=-30, B=-30, its development result has exactly the same colors without gradation.
However, since this software keeps the colors that are out of the color gamut, the details can be restored by lowering their saturation.

You can try to lower the saturation until the warning disappears by using "saturation" parameter on the "Color" sub-control or by using the fine color controller.

The colors in such a range are difficult for printing devices such as a printer and so forth. Especially, bright magenta and blue-red colors between red and blue are the most difficult colors for printing devices.
In addition, a monitor for a PC can display bright colors with high saturation, however, these colors are difficult for a printer and other printing devices.
A monitor is a light-emitting device but printed materials display colors by absorbing light.

For this reason, when presenting colors with high saturation, the colors are darkened.

As a result of printing, if the colors are pressed as if they are like being crashed, lowering lightness might be effective.

So there you have it - the X-Pro1 can record colors which are outside the gamut of support color space (sRGB in the case of my image) and at that point you get crazy false color effects!

Possibly Adobe RGB would be able to support these colors as 'in gamut' - I'd have to test to see - either way, I'll have to exercise extreme care with very saturated reds until I can get a feel for how this works in the real world.

It's all fixable in the RAW editor - but would be a pain to do to many many files from a shoot.

I also note that using film simulation 1 fixes the red issue as well - interesting...
 
I'm not sure adobe1998 extends further into reds than sRGB ... Be worth a go though
I set my cameras to adobe as a matter of course, edit them in adobe and then if I get them printed a lot of printers use Fuji frontier which are set up for adobe (I think) so the gamut is never changed ... I don't really know an aweful lot about it but since I started doing it I have had more consistent prints and generally been happier with the results!
I just make sure to output to sRGB when saving for web or when clients want a disk of images

I'm sure when it comes to shooting in RAW it won't be an issue anyway, if it just means a tweak of the red channel surely it's not a massive ball ache?

Anyway I'd have thought being a 5dii man you would like a magenta shift ... Or is it just in the blues where you like it ;)
 
Hamish - there's a very little bit of extra red saturation available in AdobeRGB - see the color-space below

adb98_srgb_gamut.jpg


Much wider range of shades generally in AdobeRGB, so if you can print to a machine that's using the same color space, then you're good to go.

Many printers default to sRGB to avoid issues, and keep the 'mainstream' users from having color consistency issues.

The Fuji RAW software was terribly slow, so I didn't play for too long - I'm hoping that ACR arrives and this becomes less of an issue in PP.

However - seeing as the camera is recording colors that are out of gamut, the issue could always be there - and some exposure bracketing may be wise when shooting hi saturation colors, such as flowers (which I plan to do this week!)


The Canon Magenta thing is something you've mentioned before - not aware of it as a Canon issue - the daylight here is different to Blighty for sure, and I usually set Daylight WB in RAW PP, so maybe I have a look from my workflow.
 
Its an in joke with people who arnt even members here so i don't know why i continue to peruse it
The 5dii has a slightly different approach to blue skys than the 5d ... slightly more magenta ... it might even be down to how the particular person I know who still uses 5ds over 5diis had it set ... but he does use 5ds still because of it! it became a joke in the shop about the 5dii when eople came in asking about it ... "ooooo you dont want a 5dii, unless you want pink skys" ... sillyness really, only shared with regulars i should add!

basically, im being a cock, ignore me ;)
 
Did you say something Hamish? :D :D :D
 
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