Have we become too nice to each other ...

[Hamish Gill]

There is a lot less constructive critisism around this place than there used to be
And there was never that much before

Is this a good thing?

Are we going to learn less from each other?

Your thoughts?

 

[Davie Hudson]

Maybe the constructive criticism there has been has lifted the standard to a point where less criticism is needed... I think my problem is there is a whole branch of photography I don't understand and I need help with that before I feel like I could even comment .. that is street photography so if anyone wants to help that'd be great

 

[Darren Turner]

constructive criticism is great, it certainly helps us all learn & i believe we should use it more on RPF.

Some people may say that they dont feel experienced or a good enough with a camera but CC is a personal thing i suppose we have our own views on a certain shot so why not tell the photographer. It may just help them in future as well as thinking how they could have gone around to take this image in a different way.

Although nice comments are always great to receive does "Nice Shot" & "Great Image" or simply "Hugo High Fiveing" a photo help us in our quest to get better at photography and help us take better pictures or maybe help us understand more about ISO, Shutter Speeds & Apertures..........??

Maybe we should intentionally ask for if it required on a per images / post basis

What do you like about a photo & why.........
what you dont like about a photo & why .........
what you would have done differently if you where behind the camera at this time taking this photo & why......

Also before asking for constructive criticism the photographer must be aware they they may not like what other members may be saying about there photo and not top get upset or offended at other comments.


I certainly think we should critique other photos more.

Daz

 

[Dan Cattermole]

I see we're your coming from H.
I think we're all (or myself at least) are/is appreciating alot more than I used to, styles, genre of photog, etc.
I suppose in a way for myself it's a good thing to admire alot of brilliant work in here due to the credit it really does deserve, and majority, if not all of the time I have nothing to nit pick about ones photo.

I do see the lack of constructiveness increasing, however maybe down to each other becoming more accustomed to one another's 'style/technique)

 

[Brian Moore]

It may be a time factor, too. With more members, more postings, etc., sometimes I find it hard to squeeze out enough time to look at every post. On top of that there is some very fine photography going on in RPF and sometimes trying to say what you feel about an image takes time to figure out.

 

[Pete Askew]

I think Darren makes some good points here and, as Brian says, time is often a factor. I tend to leave RPF in the browser most of the day and then dive in at odd times to see what is going on or catch up in the evening - so during the day my comments are often more brief than in the evenings. I confess that I have not made as many comments as I did in the past as I was wary that I tend to reflect my passion for certain leading lines and styles of crop on the images made by others. I guess the important thing is to get the balance right and I think a perfect example is the suggestions made by Chris to the image shot by Peter of the chef in his local Chinese restaurant. I also like the idea of discussing both positive and negative impressions of images and why we do and don't like certain styles, themes, compositions etc.

But, you are, in part, right Hamish, we may have become, not so much too nice, as a bit either non-committal or maybe even bland in our comments. Will try harder!!

 

[Hamish Gill]

I quite like this idea of asking for critique
The problem is, if you ask for it people might force it ...
What I want is people's initial reaction

Take the phonebox photo the other day, that's the best set of responses I've had in ages
Davie was blown away by it - very flattered by that!
But Kev said he didn't like the blossom in front of the phonebox - now as it happens I did that on purpose, but it did make me look back at the photo and wonder if that was the right thing to do ... On this occasion I am comfortable having done it, but it did make me spend some time rethinking what I had had done! Which was positive for me!
As positive as the positive response from Davie

I've got out of the habit of commenting as it seems everyone else has and I didn't want to be the one tosser going around picking at people's photos ...
But I think we should...
Not in a bad way, we should just tell each other out first reactions!

First reactions aren't always the final judgement either ...
I'd like to think if someone suggested I frame something differently and I explain why I ha done something I might talk somone arround ...
I also change my mind about photos after seeing them for a time anyway ...

We may have got used to what each other produces, but we shouldn't let that make us complacent ...

I'm not suggesting we all start bad mouthing each other, and I'm not insisting that we all start spending more time commenting or forcing comments etc! Just that if when you first look at an image and think ... "I'd prefer that framed slightly differently" why not share that thought! We used to be so good at doing it in such a constructive way!

 

[Pete Askew]

Very well put there Hamish. You are certainly right about the way comments make one think about images and certainly I have shot things differently after getting feedback from the forum. I tend to look at certain images for a quite a time (both those of mine and of others - but especially mine) before making a decision about them (and, in the case of mine, posting them). I also read the reaction of others to images that are not mine and I find that useful and sometimes I add something - I will try to do this more I think.

 

[Hamish Gill]

Just to add ...
The critique section is always there too
That is for when you want an image pulled apart and over analysed like we did with Laurence's product shots ...

I just don't want it to become a situation where the whole forum at large is really soft on each other then an exact opposite in the CC forum ...
I'd like a little more of te middle ground ...

But just to say again, don't feel you have to CC, it's just where there is somthing that hits you I think ... Forced cc is counterproductive for the most part I reckon ...
And if you simply don't have time, or confidence or whatever to say anthing ... I'm not tryin to force anyone to do anything... Just nudge those I us (including me) that did it before to do it again

 

[Thomas brookes]

Agreed with a lot of points here I think the main issue lies, especially with me. In the fact I feel nowhere near qualified to give CC on photos. I'm my opinion everyone is a better photographer than me, so how could I possibly comment.

The problem is, is that everyone is different and the deciding factor on if and how you give CC should be down to the individual your talking to. IMHO I think that could create a mine field of offence especially with newer members.

I think the matter could easily be resolved with a simple flagging up of the fact you welcome it. Maybe "CCW" at the bottom of your post or in your signature. If a button was there to press at the bottom of your post flagging up the fact you would appreciate it on this certain picture??

I think it's fair to say that eventually everyone would have it on.

Newbies need to be nurtured to a certain extent to feel comfortable enough to post without their shot being dammed from the get go.now everyone on here knows this unwritten rule already but in the future with increasing numbers of members I feel the unwritten rule of being nice to start with could get lost... So why not have a rule?

 

[Darren Turner]

I think the matter could easily be resolved with a simple flagging up of the fact you welcome it. Maybe "CCW" at the bottom of your post or in your signature. If a button was there to press at the bottom of your post flagging up the fact you would appreciate it on this certain picture??

Brilliant idea if possible maybe similar to HUGO or maybe a certain smiley or simmilar at the end of you post of pics = please critique

 

[Kev Pugh]

Good idea Tom...

Generally I am happy to receive comments etc. it's a way that I learn, even a 'nice shot but....' helps to gauge whether something is received warmly or not.

I see things that appeal to me and not necessarily to others but that's how the world works. It would be pretty damn boring otherwise imo; and I know that I have posted some mundane shots, sometimes as a way of gauging response and sometimes as in my 366 to get that shot in on the day....also, to try something different or new..I may try a different lens for instance; I have been using MF M42 lenses and have yet to try bellows for macro, they may not work and may not even get a comment, that's ok for me, some may and that may encourage me to carry on the experiments...

Hopefully, I try to be more constructive with my comments but must admit that I too have found that I am drawn into the 'Nice shot' mode..for me that is really affirmation of that fact that I like something without feeling the need to add anything else. I think we can like a photo just because it pleases us, it makes us smile, or it makes us feel warm, happy, and other such wooly nicey-nice terms etc......and does not carry with it a need to draw CC....

I am sure that there aren't many, if any members on RPF who would be unduly offended by good constructive critique, after all isn't it why we put our photogs up here, so we can share our photog experiences, good or bad, learn from those CC and others photogs and their CC etc.

I do think however, that because of the large number of posts that appear daily it can be difficult to go through all posts, (I know you do Hamish, but you wear your underpants on the outside of your trousers and cover your shoulders with a cape ) but for us mere mortals it can be difficult....

I wouldn't want to see RPF go down the lines of shoot because you can....Like my mama always said, 'sometimes, if you ain't got anything nice to say, just don't say anything....'

 

[Pete Askew]

(I know you do Hamish, but you wear your underpants on the outside of your trousers and cover your shoulders with a cape )

I think you'll find that is only at weekends!!

'sometimes, if you ain't got anything nice to say, just don't say anything....'

- the last time I heard that was in Hannibal - err, maybe I'll make sure I only say nice things about your pictures from now on!!

 

[Ralph Thornton]

Everyone has made some excellent points here. From my perspective there are so many posts that I rarely have time to look at them all, let alone come up with comments on each one that I do look at. There are those images though that spark something in my head and I'll make a comment. Pete's Abandoned Room is such an image. I really liked that shot and commented on it. But I admit that I almost never say anything negative about anyone's work. This is especially so for those areas that I don't shoot very often.

I definitely feel reluctant to criticize photos just for the sake of doing so. Heck, any shot, no matter how good, could have been done in a different way and I don't feel it is always beneficial to point that out unless it would make a huge difference in the outcome.

But perhaps the idea of a low key request for critique by the photog would be a way to encourage some alternate thinking.

 

[Pete Askew]

Although it kind of duplicates the Critique thread, I am warming to the Tom's idea of critique welcome tag. On a forum like APUG (to which I belong but never post!) there are sufficient members to support a Critique Gallery. I'm not sure that we really do yet. So maybe the tag would be a good compromise, at least for now.

 

[adrian jordin]

My only heistation over a 'critique welcome tag' is that if everyone adds it to their posts all the time then I don't see how we're any better off. And when do you not want constructive criticism...?

Personally I'm open to any suggestions (well, the clean ones at least...) and I'll try most things (see previous brackets) especially if it gets the discussion going. Perhaps we need people to act as a devils advocate to stir up discussion...

 

[Jim Kuo]

Maybe we should intentionally ask for if it required on a per images / post basis

What do you like about a photo & why.........
what you dont like about a photo & why .........
what you would have done differently if you where behind the camera at this time taking this photo & why......

I agree with this approach. By specifying what kind of assistance required, it also helps the potential "reviewers" in forming more coherent and focused replies.

 

[Larry Bolch]

Over a long career, I have had countless aspiring photographers arrange time for me to help them with their portfolios and that sort of thing. While they ask for criticism, I found that in almost all cases, it was a code-word for "affirmation". They were in fact, not actually looking for solutions to problems, but wanting someone to tell them that they were obviously talented and about to make a major fortune in photography. Skins can be microscopically thin.

Even giving technical advice is fraught with peril. Someone in a forum once asked why his picture looked dull. The highest luminance value was somewhere around 200, so I simply suggested he clip the histogram to bring it up to 255. Another poster went ballistic and accused me of "attacking" him, posting a long diatribe, even though the OP thanked me for the advice. She managed to stir up a few others as well. It was not even criticism, but simple advice, with no value judgments whatever.

In discussing the artistic end, there is far greater peril, simply because that is the essence of a photographer. My pictures look like they do, because that is the way I see them. And so it is with all shooters. "To thine own self, be true." Shoot as you see, and let the chips fall as they may. Take artistic advice and you begin to imitate the taste of others at the cost to your own. No great shooter can define their own style. It does not exist separate from the person. No one can "work on their style", since the result would be entirely artificial. Style comes entirely from within.

There is a forum called PhotoSIG, and a friend asked me to join. Great place for people who love humiliation. "Her left eye is in focus, but her right eye is softer, ruining the picture...", "The flower by the hydrant throws the whole picture out of balance." "I love how the flower by the hydrant contrasts with the colour of the hydrant, but your cheap lens ruined it." and so on. I did not join.

There never has been a perfect photograph, since perfection is in the eye of the viewer. Professional critics rarely agree. I am happy to answer a "how do I do this" question on technique, but to "how could I make this specific picture more emotionally provocative"—I walk away. A general discussion on provoking emotion with photographs is fine, but not if it involves a specific photograph.

 

[Davie Hudson]

for the record i welcome anything anyone has to say ... even if it's that they hate it, it's a feeling and i'd rather have that than indifference

 

[Tim Pindar]

I too don't get nearly enough time to look at many photos on here, these days. When I do I try to pick the standout photos and say how much I like them. Like everyone else I sometimes hold back from critique and if I'm not very impressed I just move on.

Once or twice I've posted photos which got very little reaction - perhaps no-one liked them!

I've also noticed that if you post say 6 photos from the same shoot you will get "nice photos, especially no. 2" or whatever, so if you want critique of no. 4, post it singly!

Rather than focusing on the responder's state of mind, it does beg the question - why do we post our photos here?

Everyone that goes to the effort of putting them up must know why they do so. Is it to show them off and get some praise, or to hear what others think of them?

I think critique is a good thing. I don't want to hear "shots like this are ten a penny" (just move on) but I do want to hear discussion of improvements to the composition, for instance, because I can then go back to Lightroom and improve it.

Perhaps what we need is a box on the New Thread page above the text area in which you are prompted to enter a "Reason for posting photo:" which is then reproduced above it. Would that work?