Deep thoughts for a Tuesday evening...

It is not only about the image. It is also about the originator. We call ourselves photographers. Photography can be an art, however it can also be simple documentation. Photographs take for purposes of insurance records are rarely considered art, but they can be turned into art. Anything can be turned into art.

Here's where I think it gets tricky. Imagine this scenario: I take a photograph with a digital camera and give a copy of the file to my friend who is an expert in Photoshop. My friend has never used a camera in her life. If she takes a digitizer and traces the image and saves the result is that still a photograph? That's basically the same thing the cartoon filter does in Photoshop. If you do consider the new image to still be a photograph, does this make my friend a photographer?

No. She didn't make the photo. She altered it. So she would be a transformer....
It's not the final treatment that makes a photo a photo, it's the camera that makes it. The result is a photo, transformed, but still. But that does definitely not make her the photographer of it.

More fundamental: imagine you make a photo with a splendid Medium Format film camera using some Ilford film (my fave). The negative is the photo. Or is the final print the photo? And: if you scanned the negative, transformed it in a bunch of zeros and ones, post it here: it that a photo? Or only a photillusion? That transformation is much bigger and monstrous than changing that one onesandzeros picture in another onesandzeros picture, I would say....

So: nobody here shows photos, only photillusions!
 
Are you an artist or a documentarian? Both can be photographers and a photographer can be both. That's not all that complicated. Now let's take it a step further. Are you a photographer or an illustrator? What is the distinction between the two? If an illustrator starts with a photograph, is the final image a photograph or is it an illustration? There is definitely a difference there, which is why we have two words with differing definitions. I think it depends on the amount of post processing. Which takes me back to my original question. Is photography being supplanted by computer manipulation to the point where the images are no longer considered examples of photography? And, if so, where is the dividing line?

This is slightly deviating from the original question. Is it a photo? Yes, imo. Is it the result of photography? Well, only partly....
 
I think I am with you on that, Rense, but it is an interesting subject and very difficult to pin down should one wish to. I think the central question of where one feels comfortable within the continuum of manipulation / visualisation, whether by analogue or digital means, is the most important aspect. Even something simple like zapping a distant bird from a shot causes some difficulties but not others. And, of course, in most cases, only the photographer knows what they did (and why - assuming that it wasn't just twiddling until some was achieved I suppose).
Taking a bird out of a photo is a good example of post capture manipulation. One that most photographers have done. But what about the opposite, adding birds to a photo? If you take a computer-aided drawing of a bird and turn it into a flock of birds in Photoshop and then paste that image on a photograph of the sky is the resulting image an example of photography? Would the PS artist who created the image be considered a photographer based on his image manipulation?
 
Taking a bird out of a photo is a good example of post capture manipulation. One that most photographers have done. But what about the opposite, adding birds to a photo? If you take a computer-aided drawing of a bird and turn it into a flock of birds in Photoshop and then paste that image on a photograph of the sky is the resulting image an example of photography? Would the PS artist who created the image be considered a photographer based on his image manipulation?

No. Not based on his image manipulation. If he made the photo he is...
 
But neither one nor the other makes me happier.... I like photography. Not every aspect: I have never developed film, which might be some essential part of the proces. I like making pictures with the camera. All kinds of cameras. I like to show them, at least the better ones (or better: the ones I like for some reason). If it involved severe manipulation, so be it. I have my fun, my satisfaction, and you don't have to look at it.

All my recent photos are quite heavily edited with dodging, burning, changing colour levels, vignetting, global and local sharpening etc. I never pretended that the world looks like my photos. Or do you really think I only visit black-and-white places?

Photography is all about the process, about seeing, about capturing the light. I do not mind if you don't want to edit your photos. I do not even mind if you don't like me editing my photos. I like it when you do what makes you happy. I like it even when I do what me makes me happy.... Even in photography....
 
I guess this is the opposite of the way Gerhard Richter created his photorealistic images - he 'copied' a photo, but created a painting. Many 18th century painters employed a camera obscura at times and so painted over a projection rather like your theoretical friend. It's the where does it become art question that is so difficult. Look at some electron microscope images created as one thing yet, in some eyes, something completely else.
 
But neither one nor the other makes me happier.... I like photography. Not every aspect: I have never developed film, which might be some essential part of the proces. I like making pictures with the camera. All kinds of cameras. I like to show them, at least the better ones (or better: the ones I like for some reason). If it involved severe manipulation, so be it. I have my fun, my satisfaction, and you don't have to look at it.

All my recent photos are quite heavily edited with dodging, burning, changing colour levels, vignetting, global and local sharpening etc. I never pretended that the world looks like my photos. Or do you really think I only visit black-and-white places?

Photography is all about the process, about seeing, about capturing the light. I do not mind if you don't want to edit your photos. I do not even mind if you don't like me editing my photos. I like it when you do what makes you happy. I like it even when I do what me makes me happy.... Even in photography....
I don't dislike heavily post-processed photos. It is all art to me. For that matter, what you are describing is really just the digital version of darkroom manipulation, something at which Ansel Adams excelled. That doesn't make him any less a photographer. That's not really what I'm getting at, tho.

No. Not based on his image manipulation. If he made the photo he is...
Finally! :) Then you agree that at some point an image ceases to be an example of photography and is less about the skill of the photographer and more about the skill of the illustrator/computer operator. I think we can agree that a totally computer-generated image is not a photograph and that an unedited image, whether a negative or a file from a digital camera, is obviously a photograph. I believe there is somewhere between those two extremes where a photograph ceases to be a photograph and instead becomes a computer image. Where that point is at is obviously a very subjective matter. I feel that we are fast approaching a point where photography will be more about the post-processing than the photographer's vision. We won't have photographers anymore, we will have people with cellphones and apps with image filters.

Than again, maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic and raging against the dying of the light.
 
I am not as pessimistic as you, John. You must see it like this: seventy years ago, only a few fortunate people could afford a camera, and probably only the professionals could excel in what they did. Photography has become a mass consumption product, and probably every day more photos are made worldwide than in the first 50 yrs of photography altogether... But still there are only a few who excel and are really showing what photography can be all about. For the mass, including myself (please don't argue), it is a kind of leisure, some distraction of every day life, or probably a means of understanding it.

It is not that good photography is dying. It just is hard to notice through all the daily breaths of those who can afford a camera.... Kind of see the trees through the forest, or probably better, the needle in the haystack....

But then: when my father made his snapshots in the 60s and 70s, these were hardly any better than all those enjoying their way of expression with a camera.... Many thoughts, few crystals.... I know....
 
I don't dislike heavily post-processed photos. It is all art to me. For that matter, what you are describing is really just the digital version of darkroom manipulation, something at which Ansel Adams excelled. That doesn't make him any less a photographer. That's not really what I'm getting at, tho.


Finally! :) Then you agree that at some point an image ceases to be an example of photography and is less about the skill of the photographer and more about the skill of the illustrator/computer operator. I think we can agree that a totally computer-generated image is not a photograph and that an unedited image, whether a negative or a file from a digital camera, is obviously a photograph. I believe there is somewhere between those two extremes where a photograph ceases to be a photograph and instead becomes a computer image. Where that point is at is obviously a very subjective matter. I feel that we are fast approaching a point where photography will be more about the post-processing than the photographer's vision. We won't have photographers anymore, we will have people with cellphones and apps with image filters.

Than again, maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic and raging against the dying of the light.

I never questioned that (the underscored)! But I still hold it is a photo! That there is more involved, and that that more is overriding photography is without doubt! But still, it's a photo....
 
I never questioned that (the underscored)! But I still hold it is a photo! That there is more involved, and that that more is overriding photography is without doubt! But still, it's a photo....
Then let me try another scenario. If I take a photo and place it on a light table and then trace the image onto a piece of tracing paper, is the resulting traced image a photograph? If not, does it make a difference if the tracing is done in Photoshop by use of a filter?
 
That's a strong light table!

No. Yes. As you suspected.

But as you see, and as I tried to say in quite other words, there is some difficulty involved since photos are not longer made on film... It makes the discussion fuzzy. But the photo is still a photo, while made with the camera. Hardly recognisable as such, but still....
 
That's a strong light table!
l....
I thought you might call me on that one. :) I thought about using the act of placing the photo face up on a piece of carbon paper and then tracing over the image. Same general result.

That's a strong light table!

No. Yes. As you suspected.

But as you see, and as I tried to say in quite other words, there is some difficulty involved since photos are not longer made on film... It makes the discussion fuzzy. But the photo is still a photo, while made with the camera. Hardly recognisable as such, but still....

So you are saying that the tracing done in Photoshop is still a photograph while the one done by hand is now a tracing instead of a photo? That seems a rather arbitrary distinction.
 
I thought you might call me on that one. :) I thought about using the act of placing the photo face up on a piece of carbon paper and then tracing over the image. Same general result.



So you are saying that the tracing done in Photoshop is still a photograph while the one done by hand is now a tracing instead of a photo? That seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

Do you think?

The first (the one on tracing paper) is made with a pencil, so that is not a photo. The second is a treatment of a photo. It's still made originally made with a camera, it is still the same medium (in this case digital, but still....) This is where the confusion starts I think. A classical photo, made by the lighting of some celluloid or other medium and afterwards photo paper in a dark room can be manipulated only in three processes: the shooting (e.g. by pulling and pushing, but also by the type of film), the development (time, temperature and temperament (of the chemicals)), and the printing (dodging, burning, cropping). We think all of this being photography.

Then we started to make pictures with a similar apparatus: a digital camera. In our heads and in our hearts we're still doing the same during the first process, in capturing the scene. There is no difference in analogue or digital photography, not essentially. But then the difference comes into light: we have to develop the photos in the computer, and most people don't print their photos anymore except in social media. The medium, the real print, the photo as such not longer exists! It's zeros and ones, digital information in a format we're not able to read or understand unless a machine translates it for us. As long as a capture stays on a HD or somewhere on a server it is no photo, it can't be seen as something with meaning. We have to look to the photo through our magic glass, the screen, connected to an even more magical machinery translating a heap of onezero-DNA in a picture which makes sense to our brain. The photo is very volatile, disappearing as soon as we shut the computer down. It is generated probably somewhere else in the world - as by magic - as soon as someone clicks a link, is redirected through the onezerowood to that particular sequence of zeros and ones coding for my photo and his machine translates it in something he thinks is a photo, a picture of a meaningful scene, captured by a camera as a result of bouncing light.

Comparing these two, it might seem ridiculous calling them both 'photo' at all! They are so different! But the resemblance is greater than thought. Both pictures are made with a camera, of some scene, a capture of the light at a given moment. Both can be altered, in many ways, things can be added, or even left, colours can be changed, strange effects can be added.

The 'art' of changing your photo was known by only some magicians in the early days of photography. Few had a camera, even less had a darkroom, and only some of the latter, the high-priests of photography, did strange things during development, enlarging and printing. Nobody questions their photography capabilities, or if their manipulations were part of photography. Not everybody liked it: as now, many liked the unaltered 'truth' of a photo. And there is nothing wrong with that! In the rise of digital photography cameras became ridiculous cheap, and, what is more, through democratisation of the full of photography, including development and printing, every bit of it became available for the masses. The high-priests lost their position but for some believers in 'real' photography who stuck, or returned, to analogue photography. Development developed, to great heights until development became more important than making the shot. But still.... this was not different for some in the early days....

I think this all belongs to photography. The huge change, notably in the possibilities to change your photo into something almost unrecognisable, is induced by the digital revolution, the transition from celluloid to some digital medium containing zeros and ones. In its slipstream, development changed, also because so many have access..... But still, it is photography....

Tracing paper doesn't belong to photography. Or at least my creativity has not found the use of tracing paper in photography yet....
 
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Very interesting thought process, Rense. I guess that might be why I tend to process digitally captured images in a way that I could have had they been captured on film. When I step into (extreme) HDR etc it doesn't feel like photography to me any more and the effect looks wrong to my eye. Things like cross-processing, pulling and pushing, bleach bypass, dodging and burning, selective and variable contrast, correcting verticals (to some extent), solarisation and even unsharp mask were all tools that could be used in the analogue domain. I feel comfortable with them and those that extend naturally from them. Some of the 'art' effects (like posterisation - although also in some distant way coming from a 'photographic' process) feel less photographic to me and I tend not to use them and rarely like what they produce. Now this is probably 'my problem' and a result of the route I got here. There is a whole generation who feel less constrained. And some produce some truly astonishing work. However, it is the ones that are still rooted in and clearly evolved from photography that I tend to appreciate more (e.g. Miss Aniela).

http://www.missaniela.com


One of the areas where I feel less comfortable, even though they are direct simulations of an analogue process, is when one creates a collodion-like image or a cyanotype etc from a digital starting point fully in the digital domain. It feels like cheating and often lacks something that the original process produced. I even feel a twinge of guilt when I add grain to a digital image!
 
Don't know, Pete. No guilt here, I guess. Probably both have their own merit, and simulation of the other kind of photography, be it analogue or digital, is not so much of a problem for me. Neither is it when one like to paint with the camera or something like that. It's all within the creative spectrum....

And the more I think of it, the more it becomes true: a photo shows what the photographer wants to show.... not what reality looks like, or is about.....
 
Before I am understood wrong: there are things that can be done with a camera which I'm not very fond of, like hammering nails in the wall...
 
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