Is "print quality" important anymore?

Tony Warren

Well-Known Member
I was browsing my copy of Ansel Adams Letters and Images 1916-1984 and came across a letter he wrote to Bill Brandt in 1977 after meeting him in London the year before and being given a copy of Brandt's "Shadow of Light and, later, an original print of one of the images.. A couple of passages I thought were interesting:

"Imagine the catastrophe if all images were the same, bound by a fixed convention of values etc."

Isn't that basically what digital has imposed on photography? Yes, there is huge scope for visual interpretation through equipment choice and pre- and post-processing through the camera and software, but the output stage conforms to Adam's description exactly doesn't it?

These two photographers were diametrical opposites in terms of style, which came from their overall approach including camera, lenses, materials and processing. The final print being the culmination of all these inputs.

Adams say a little further on:

"My only negative comment on the book is that it shows we can't match the quality of silver with the quality of ink (and vice versa)."

Reading it makes me miss the darkroom even more even though printing technology is worlds better than in those days. And what we see now is very much dictated by the equipment we are using. Progress or catastrophe?
 
Tony, I want to chime in on this but I have an early morning location job spotting two large scale digitally printed (30"x 45") art prints on matte paper. I certainly have an opinion on this since I produce archival digital pigment prints for photographers and personally using various Epson printers. Maybe this evening or in the a.m.
 
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"My only negative comment on the book is that it shows we can't match the quality of silver with the quality of ink (and vice versa)."
"Good pitching beats good hitting every time, and vice versa." Yogi Berra.

I agree with Rob. Looking forward to the discussion.
 
Interesting Beth. Does that mean that images today are seen more as decorative items rather than works of art? I guess that has always been the case in one type of application, the same same for other media, when it is perfectly valid of course.
 
Well, I guess I'm going to give my two cents worth. First is this for personal use or are we talking about print quality for business. I'm not going to mince any words here because this is something that is near and dear to me. I don't make any separate distinction between the two. If my name is attached to the work then it's got to be the best it can be. This attitude was ingrained in me from the very beginning of my photo career by a photographer named Bank Langmore. He taught me that excellence is a way of thinking and working and not something you hope to achieve every now and then.
WilliamBrown-2024_0554_DF1080px.jpg
There, I got that out of the way. I live and work in a small defined environment. My clients expect a specific level of craftsmanship from me and I'm being paid to meet or exceed those expectations. In the attached photo I'm dust spotting a photographer's 40x60 digital pigment print on archival matte paper for a Dallas gallery. Yes, digital prints need spotting too just as silver prints. Someone will be paying over $10,000 once this piece is framed. But, I devote the same level of attention to a 5x7 that I'm giving away.

My main client is a high end portrait photographer in Dallas. We've collaborated together for 34 years. Until digital came along my part was retouching each individual silver gelatin print that his darkroom technician produced. This was all done with a Windsor & Newton series 7 sable brush and dyes. These prints were all produced with the highest level of archival papers and printing which meant a special print washer and adherence to strict methods. When John took the studio digital in 2006 the wet darkroom faded away and the new digital darkroom was born.

Right from the get-go John wanted to maintain the same level of excellence his clients had come to know with traditional darkroom prints. This was a whole new ballgame for me because now I wouldn't just be retouching but I was now the printer too. There would be no slack cut to me for my inexperience. Johns name on a print meant it was the best it could be. This reputation he had established for excellence was known in Dallas. John patiently passed his knowledge on to me and this past August marked my 18th year as a digital darkroom specialist.

Yes, I know that sounds like I'm a little full of myself but it's not meant that way. I've worked hard to master the techniques of fine art printing. Fine art printing, what does that mean? To me it means producing work that individuals are willing to spend thousands of dollars on and it also means creating work that stands the test of time. I produce work for people who have been John's clients for decades. I've been at it long enough that I'm retouching bridal portraits of the children of brides whose portrait I retouched 30 years ago. These prints are hanging in collections in these peoples homes. John even has a folder on his web page devoted to collections. Traditional silver gelatin prints right next to digital pigment prints. Because John always held his work to a specific level the visual appearance is seamless. I've worked hard to maintain this visual coherence to silver prints.

When digital came along I saw so many photographers act as if photography was just invented. Almost as if film never existed. Their quality standards went out the window. I said it was like they had their brains sucked out. Work they would have previously thrown back at the lab was now great. Look at what I'm able to do all by myself now! My clients all but vanished except for John and a small family run lab, Photographique. I'm spotting the above print at Photographique. I've worked with John since 1990 but I've worked with Photographique since 1985.

This probably seems like a long way around the barn but I want to make a point. There are many younger folks trying to figure out what they want to do with their business. I say separate yourself from the crowd of good enough. In the studio I have a box brimming with torn up reject prints. I laugh and say that's where we keep all the prints that are good enough. It's always been said you only get one chance to make a first impression. I say YES Tony, there are still those who think print quality matters and those are the people I want to associate with. Put a pencil to it and paper and ink are a small investment when compared to a reputation that you can't put a price on.

I disagree that the output stage is somehow the same for every print. Maybe on some level but I guarantee you that Ansel would have found a specialist that could fulfill his vision. Don't be bound by the "that's how it's always been done" thinking. I have notebooks full of test prints showing all different types of print modification and how they respond on different papers. They say PS has at least three different ways of doing the same thing. In one sense this is true but each way responds ever so slightly different. It's learning how to use nuance in your methods. Yes, I want the customer to be happy but ultimately I'm working to please me. The client is the benefactor in this process. I certainly can't say this is the easy way because it's not. Every image I work on has my special touch, most of which will never be noticed. That's okay. Progress or catastrophe? That's up to you.
 
Bill, that was an interesting read, and I am so glad you exist and are dedicated to your craft. I hate to think I’m a ‘good enough’ guy, but that would be because I don’t know any better. I have never had my prints made to the standard you are committed to, more’s the pity. I get my film processed and scanned by https://amimage.co.uk/pages/film-processing-1 and they send me the scans via email. No print involved. I print just a few of my images on a Canon pro-graf printer, just for personal viewing. I guess it’s ’good enough’, but I would like to do better.

I’ve just watched this interesting Eggleston video, which is largely about printing with dyes:

 
Thank you for such interesting and thought provoking responses. I am heartened by your comments Bill regarding the use your work is put to. Photography is one of the graphic arts after all and deserves to be accorded the standing and recognition it justly merits. The world is so awash with mediocre photographs, not even able to be called records in many case, that it is heartening that there are collectors who still value the excellent work you are producing.

I am also interested in what you say about PS and the variety of approach it offers. If my opening quote from Adams were to be true, then an image produced with today's technology would be like an instrumental piece of music without the nuances and subtleties that harmonics and acoustics bring to it. I am truly heartened that you can still include something similar through your experience and skill, what Adams likened to the print being the "performance" and the negative, the "score".
 
I want to respond to Rob's comment first. Boy, I've got a lot to learn still. Each person has something to contribute to the process. Since I've only been on this forum for a short time I can't make sweeping statements about other people's work but the few images I've seen of yours show a specific vision of the artist. That's the point I want to make.

My personal photo work is by no means in demand but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to be seen in a specific way. There can be helpful information online but I sometimes observe individual artists feel their view is somehow less valuable or important. After seeing your work on your website Rob it has certainly got me to thinking. I like your "dark" interpretation. It shows you are making personal choices and decisions as to how you want your work to be seen. When you make a print Rob on your printer that shows your vision then it's better than good-enough. I don't know all there is to learn that's for sure but I want to always be pushing the envelope personally. Listen and learn from others but ultimately produce work that you are proud of. That's the point I want to get across.

You also described the process of having your film finished at an outside lab and then you work up a few of the scans. Printing only a few for personal enjoyment. My process is identical to that. I sometimes make two or three versions of a singular image before choosing my final though. This is the exploration process I'm talking about. Not settling for the okay version but making one more print that you can look at and say, that's it, that's what I saw in my mind's eye for this image.

Before I got my 18 year old Epson Pro 4800 to print on at home I was printing on my Epson home printer on everyday printer paper. I just wanted to see a physical print. I wish I had the current archival ink set to use at home but I don't. I print much of my personal work on an inexpensive Red River stock. When I print a final for outside purposes though it's on the best paper for that image.

Anyway, I want to inspire others to press beyond acceptance of the everyday work and produce a print that says, " this is my vision, this is what I saw." Doing this puts you beyond the good-enough crowd.
 
Tony, I have been blessed to spend my working adult life helping others showcase their work. The by-product of that is I get to use what I've learned for my personal work. My heart is to pass it on.

I certainly haven't had the budget to spend on expert framing, printing and the like so I've learned how to do it myself. Presentation, presentation, presentation. This philosophy is the backbone of my business and my personal work. This all goes back to the photographer I mentioned, Bank Langmore. Not being willing to settle but pushing beyond the norm. An attitude of excellence. This attitude can be seen and felt by others. It attracts those looking to separate from the everyday.

When you show and express your thoughts about something it can get others excited about the subject. This is my goal. Getting others excited about how they showcase their work and themselves.

Please don't let my words be off putting. I will admit up front that I can come across as an art snob. I just have strong opinions about certain things and I let my enthusiasm get the better of me. I'm an average guy with NO formal art background. No real art history knowledge just a strong desire to learn and never settle. I've enjoyed and benefitted from all the artists I've gotten to work with. Ultimately though I've added my own personal touch to all the different requests from over the years.

On the subject of PS I'm not for sure where to begin. This is a very complex and deep program and even after 18 years of daily use I'm still discovering and learning something new. I've seen articles posted that say something like all you need to know about PS in 15 minutes. That's a tip off right there about the content of the article. Certainly, you get basic introduction to levels and curves but that doesn't really tell you anything about how to use it or I should say how best to use it.

I'm a very different PS user. I was a traditional retoucher for 30 years before moving to digital so I didn't have to learn how to retouch. I also took a very different approach in that my main client was shooting with a Hasselblad and a Phase One P-30 digital back. This was 2006 and mainstream was 12MP on a full frame sensor. No comparison to those 30 MP medium format files I was having to work with. Tutorials on retouching these files were non-existent. Most PS methods in these tutorials were VERY destructive to details and were not seamless and undetectable. I had to create my own methodology.

There was one time I was having an output issue and so I contacted a PS guru for help. I described all the details about the camera and digital back and said that the file was 750 MG I was trying to print. The response back to me was "WHY would anyone need a file that size"? They couldn't answer my question. I could tell other stories but suffice it to say I cut my own path through the PS jungle.

My work is varied across multiple subjects. My main work is on portraits shot with the Fuji GFX 100II but I also do photo restoration. My specialty are images considered too damaged to save. This requires a different PS skillset and I've had an incredible teacher who has helped me to navigate the depth of PS. As I said still learning though. I don't have secrets necessarily. It's more about implementation of said methods. This is where the nuance I spoke about comes into play. Learning how to judge on a screen what the result will look like in a print.

Self critiquing is imperative in this process. What does too much sharpening look like? What's the best form of sharpening for this image? Is no sharpening best? Output processes are not one size fits all. This is where all my testing and notebooks full of examples comes in. I've spent countless hours analyzing every print that comes out of the printer. If I'm making several prints for a job I oft times add different forms of sharpening to each test and then determine which one is best, in my opinion. Some sharpening methods add a slight contrast boost to the image. Is this good or bad?

When I process an image in CP 1 Pro I leave some room at the ends of the histogram and in general don't try to nail it, just get close. This is because as I apply my levels and curves the look of the image, color and saturation for example, is being impacted. Oft times I use a curve to add a saturation boost while at the same time achieve a nice contrast boost. But this is subtle. Subtlety and nuance is the goal. Just like the sharpening you need to decide where the visual threshold is and then take it slightly back. Pushing just to the edge and then stepping back is many times where the visual magic happens.

As you can see this could turn into a book so I'd better bring this to a stopping point. If you have any specific questions I will do my best to answer those. Let me end this by saying the normal method for setting the white point and black point is very basic and in my view destructive. This beginning point can set the stage for the whole edit so it needs to be more than just do this and then do this. Do you want to take your work to the next level? Then it's time to start looking more closely at the processes and methods.

Again, progress or catastrophe? It's up to you.
 
Bill, that was an interesting read, and I am so glad you exist and are dedicated to your craft. I hate to think I’m a ‘good enough’ guy, but that would be because I don’t know any better. I have never had my prints made to the standard you are committed to, more’s the pity. I get my film processed and scanned by https://amimage.co.uk/pages/film-processing-1 and they send me the scans via email. No print involved. I print just a few of my images on a Canon pro-graf printer, just for personal viewing. I guess it’s ’good enough’, but I would like to do better.

I’ve just watched this interesting Eggleston video, which is largely about printing with dyes:

Rob, I just watched the video. Thanks for sharing. I have a vivid memory of seeing my first dye transfer print of a Bank Langmore cowboy image. Breath taking for it's clarity of color and detail. Title of the image was "Len Babb, ZX buckaroo". Len has become a well known cowboy artist. My first cowboy hat was blocked based on the one he is wearing in this photo. Here's a portion of that image. The original was a vertical and full length.
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Thanks for the follow-ups. It seems there is a common approach in terms of printing selected images for personal use. At the commercial level and for discerning clients, quality begins to really be an issue. I guess I have always worked for my own enjoyment, an indulgence that being an amateur allows.

I belonged to a very long established camera club and a postal portfolio group for many years where I enjoyed the critiques of a small group of disparate but serious photographers. Something similar to a forum but on a much smaller scale I guess. Quality was always something that had to be of a good standard in the monthly print we produced and circulated for consideration and comment. Club work involved exhibition and competition where quality was equally important. I no longer feel that there is that need to the same degree until you get to Bill's level of commissioned work. A major reason I no longer belong to a club.

Each to his own I suppose.
 
I'm probably even more of a 'good enough' guy than Rob, I'm afraid (sorry Bill). I have enjoyed reading the various comments. I also feel that print quality is still important, though I have set my bar somewhat lower than most here. My printer is the humble Canon G650, an all-in-one six ink unit. Certainly not perfect, but can produce pleasing prints up to A4, both colour and b+w (the latter with a fiddle factor added).
 
for discerning clients, quality begins to really be an issue
This word, quality, is in one sense ambiguous. On my ventures to gallery exhibits I often see prints with horribly cut mats, dust spots on prints or PS methods lacking in invisibility. I see it more as a personal level of acceptance. If you've given any thought to what you are doing you are already several steps ahead. I just happen to be a person who thrives on minutiae and gravitate to those who are looking for that. My respect for someone's work is not all about my idealized concepts.

Fun for me is in the hunt for a small detail that I see as beneficial to an image. I enjoy interaction with others who have varying ideas and methods because I never know when I will see or hear something that makes me think deeper. On the other hand I am not a club person because there can be too many restrictions which at times can seem man made.

I certainly want people to enjoy the process otherwise it just becomes another task to perform. The good-enough comment was not meant to label anyone but to shake up anyone thinking about competing in the commercial world. I never know who's reading my comments. I've seen a lot happen in photography over my years and one of the biggest was when digital retouching and printing became available to the masses. There is an overabundance of what I call hack surgeons performing PS surgery. This bothers me because I know what is possible and I get lumped in with those who've helped to create the term "photoshopped". The best is when my main client introduces me as his printing and PS specialist and they say "Oh, my 8 year old knows PS". I probably have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder so just consider the source.

I'm headed towards a tangent so I better get back on track. I'm not always going to be here to produce my personal work so I want what's left to be of a good representation of my artistic vision. I'm a crazy person when it comes to much of this and I know it. Consider my words as a kick in the pants if that's what you need but otherwise just chalk it up to "he's crazy".
 
I'm probably even more of a 'good enough' guy than Rob, I'm afraid (sorry Bill). I have enjoyed reading the various comments. I also feel that print quality is still important, though I have set my bar somewhat lower than most here. My printer is the humble Canon G650, an all-in-one six ink unit. Certainly not perfect, but can produce pleasing prints up to A4, both colour and b+w (the latter with a fiddle factor added).
Ralph, No apology needed. As I stated in my response to Tony I'm a crazy person so don't take anything personal. This just happens to be where I live and am comfortable with it until persons start feeling like they can't live up to something I've said. My words are meant to create introspection if need be but not condemnation.

Part of the enjoyment for me is my increased proficiency in the process. I used to be overwhelmed when I thought about the work it was going to take to produce a show of my own work. As the years have passed and I have learned so much it no longer seems impossible. I even had my first exhibit last year and it didn't kill me. My hope is to help others so that they can be empowered and not be overwhelmed by the things they feel they know nothing about. None of it requires a person to be a rocket scientist just someone dedicated to learning. What used to take me hours can now sometimes take a few minutes. Did I do it by myself? Some of it yes but lots of it through the generous help and patience of others more knowledgeable than myself.

Keep on Keeping on and enjoy the journey.
 
This is a very interesting thread, even for someone like me, for whom the next photo I print will be the first photo I print. I intend to get to that point at some time, but even as I improve I am constantly finding new ways that my images are not good enough to commit to paper. The goalposts are always moving...
 
Interesting Beth. Does that mean that images today are seen more as decorative items rather than works of art? I guess that has always been the case in one type of application, the same same for other media, when it is perfectly valid of course.
in the market i'm in, images are absolutely seen as decorative items rather than as art. i sell in a tourist town full of rich snobs that like to outdo each other in shopping sprees. i don't like taking photos of the beach as much as i enjoy photographing mountains. but the beach photos pay for the mountain trips/photos. one hand washes the other.
 
This word, quality, is in one sense ambiguous. On my ventures to gallery exhibits I often see prints with horribly cut mats, dust spots on prints or PS methods lacking in invisibility. I see it more as a personal level of acceptance. If you've given any thought to what you are doing you are already several steps ahead. I just happen to be a person who thrives on minutiae and gravitate to those who are looking for that. My respect for someone's work is not all about my idealized concepts.

Fun for me is in the hunt for a small detail that I see as beneficial to an image. I enjoy interaction with others who have varying ideas and methods because I never know when I will see or hear something that makes me think deeper. On the other hand I am not a club person because there can be too many restrictions which at times can seem man made.

I certainly want people to enjoy the process otherwise it just becomes another task to perform. The good-enough comment was not meant to label anyone but to shake up anyone thinking about competing in the commercial world. I never know who's reading my comments. I've seen a lot happen in photography over my years and one of the biggest was when digital retouching and printing became available to the masses. There is an overabundance of what I call hack surgeons performing PS surgery. This bothers me because I know what is possible and I get lumped in with those who've helped to create the term "photoshopped". The best is when my main client introduces me as his printing and PS specialist and they say "Oh, my 8 year old knows PS". I probably have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder so just consider the source.

I'm headed towards a tangent so I better get back on track. I'm not always going to be here to produce my personal work so I want what's left to be of a good representation of my artistic vision. I'm a crazy person when it comes to much of this and I know it. Consider my words as a kick in the pants if that's what you need but otherwise just chalk it up to "he's crazy".
I define quality as being something in a print that makes it stand out from what you are suggesting is good-enough quality. The other things you mention, mattes, spotting etc, are presentation and one of the essential things to get right before offering your work for viewing. The devil is in the detail as the saying goes and poor presentation just means you are starting on the back foot. I competed and judged for many years and a poorly prepared print always set the wrong tone. So, like you, Bill, I will always pay attention to details in both presentation and PQ.

If you are going to sell your images, presentation is the most important thing to get right from the outset. It should be transparent. And digital effects too can have a similar effect as you mention.

At one time, I would have advocated club membership to advance one’s work. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of the things that have soured for me since digital appeared. Your 8 year old expert on PS seemed to populate club membership and my folio seemed too descend into swapping expert opinions on how to use it. So now I don’t belong to either.

In the end it is horses for courses. My prints now are made on a simple Epson L310 and are for my eyes only really. So they are good enough for my purposes now, for selling and exhibition I used to have a pigment ink A3+ model. Horses for courses!
 
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